The (ahem) argument concerns the (false-and-foolish) insistence of 'im-skeptical' that the human brain *is* the human mind; that is, that 'mind' is fully explicable by matter --- or, to put it more abstractly, that philosophical materialism, or 'naturalism', accurately and fully explains, without remainder, all of reality.
'Martin' is arguing the position (which happens to be the truth of the matter) that 'mind' is not, and in principle cannot ever be, explained by 'naturalism'; that is, that the reality of minds is contrary to the logical entailments of philosophical materialism, and that ergo, 'naturalism' does not, and cannot ever, accurately and fully explain, without remainder, all of reality.
Eventually, 'Martin' presents an argument against naturalism/materialism with respect to minds very similar to my reductio ad absurdum *of* naturalism/materialism, my "you are the proof that God is" argument.
Here is an "executive summary" of the valiant attempt --
im-skeptical: How does consciousness fit into nature? More easily than dualism. The concept of a soul or some kind of external being adds absolutely nothing to explaining our subjective experience. The fact is, we have subjective experience, and we are products of nature. I think if you could see the conscious experience different animals, you would see a whole range of levels of consciousness from pure automaton to sentience to human consciousness. My question for you is, at what point in this continuum does it become necessary to introduce the external soul, and what is accomplished by it?Lest my point in referring to 'im-skeptical' as "I don't know what 'dictionary' means" be misunderstood or missed, I will interrupt here to explain.
Martin: The arguments for dualism are deductive, so saying that they have no explanatory power does nothing, absolutely nothing, to refute them.
For example, the problem here is that consciousness is subjective, or private, whereas matter is public and observable by anyone (in principle). The gulf between the two is, perhaps, unbridgeable. It isn't something being "postulated" to explain any fact; rather, it is a datum itself in need of explanation.
I pretend to be skeptical: Still no answer to my question.
Martin: I already answered that implicitly: the "soul" is not a hypothesis, among others, to explain a set of facts. Rather, it is directly deduced from the impossibility of matter giving rise to it. OR... one of the premises fails in the dualist's arguments. But criticizing it for not being able to explain anything does not refute any of the premises, and so is a misplaced objection.
I pretend to be reasoning: In my statement, I did not claim to refute the existence of a soul. I did say that it really doesn't help to explain why we have consciousness. If you think it does, I would like to understand that. It's like saying I can't see something with my eyes unless I have someone standing behind me to do the seeing for me. Well, he might be able to see, but how does that make ME see? You might say the one standing behind me is really ME, but I can't see what it explains. I am myself. When my brain stops functioning, my conscious experience stops, too. There's no evidence of any sort that tells me otherwise. Having a ghost just complicates the picture unnecessarily.
I pretend to be reasoning: In my statement, I did not claim to refute the existence of a soul. I did say that it really doesn't help to explain why we have consciousness. If you think it does, I would like to understand that.
Martin: I think I've said, by my count three times now, that the soul is not an explanatory posit at all. So even if it fails to explain something, that is not a mark against it because that's not something it's trying to do. Rather, it's an existence claim that is itself a part of the world in need of explanation.
I pretend to be reasoning: When my brain stops functioning, my conscious experience stops, too. There's no evidence of any sort that tells me otherwise. Having a ghost just complicates the picture unnecessarily.
Martin: I've outlined several, and they are generally in this form:
1. All minds have feature X
2. No matter has feature X
3. Therefore, no minds are matter
If you wish to deny the conclusion, then that entails denying one of the premises. Either minds do not have feature X, or matter does have feature X or can produce feature X. If you cannot refute either premise, then you have no rational basis for denying the conclusion.
Halus interruptus: Martin,
im-skeptical already agrees with you that we are conscious beings. And he also said that he was not trying to refute the existence of a soul. He was pointing out that he sees no reason for accepting that claim of existence.
If you wish to persuade others that the soul actually exists, then you need to provide evidence for it. For example, if it could be shown that the soul explains how humans and animals are conscious that would be a good reason for accepting its existence.
I don't know what 'dictionary' means: I do refute the premise that no matter has feature X. My brain is a material thing. My mind is a product of the brain. You have no rational basis for claiming that premise is true, unless you can show that it is true. (Yes, I've heard the arguments. They all simply assume that a mind can't be produced by material causes, but they never demonstrate the truth of that claim.)
Notice that 'im-skeptical' says "I do refute the premise that no matter has feature X." But, he did noting of the sort: he refuted nothing. What he did is assert (for the umpteenth time) the very point under dispute -- and simultaneously hand-wave away any and all arguments that show his assertion to be false. As we shall see, he will do the same concerning the argument 'Martin' is presenting.
For whatever reason, 'Martin' let this instance of misuse of the term 'refute' go. He'll later take 'im-skeptical' to task for incorrectly labling a statement "an assumption".
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You see, when 'im-skeptical' (or most any 'atheist') "reasons" as an atheist, his mere assertion of the denial of what you have said in dispue of his God-denial becomes the "refutation" of it; his rebranding of your conclusion to an "assumption" makes it so, and so makes you guilty of begging the question. That is, even should you get him (or most any other 'atheist') to agree to a set of premises, and then soundly and validly reason from those premises to a conclusion directly contrary to his God-denial or logical entailments of it, he will simply decree that your conclusion is actually an assumption of your argument and that you were begging the question all along, and that therefore his God-denial (or its entailments) stands unchallenged and undefeated.
This is an example of *how* atheists/materialists, nearly to a man, "reason". This is an illustration of *why* is it logically impossible to actually reason with most of them; for they are not engaged in reasoning in the first place. It is not the case that they are simply and honestly mistaken about the nature of reality. It is not the case that they had arrived at their 'atheism' via reason, with a simple mistake made along the way, such that one can reason them out of the mistake. It is not the case that if only one is patient enough and "kind" enough, one can lead them to see and correct the error(s) in their thinking about the fundamental nature of reality.
Rather, it is that they will not reason correctly when sound reason would lead them where they will not go.
Yet, at the same time, so as not to leave a false impression, it is not *only* 'atheists' who "reason" in this manner of setting aside sound reasoning, and retreating into un-reason and anti-logic, when reason disputes the beliefs and/or assertions a person desires to believe are beyond dispute -- most "liberals" will do it, all outright leftists do it, all 'post-modernists' do it, all DarwinDefenders do it. Hell! even some Christians do it: for instance, many (most?) Calvinists do it; many (most?) Catholics do it with regard to the Reformation, especially regarding the 'solas'; and among the regulars at Victor Reppert's blog, 'BenYachov' does it much of the time, and 'B.Prokop' does it most of the time (but then, he's actually a leftist, rather than a Christian).
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Also, consider the post by 'Hal' (whom I referred to as "Halus Interruptus"):
"im-skeptical already agrees with you that we are conscious beings. And he also said that he was not trying to refute the existence of a soul. He was pointing out that he sees no reason for accepting that claim of existence."
Sure, at one point, 'im-skeptical' did indeed say, "In my statement, I did not claim to refute the existence of a soul. I did say that it really doesn't help to explain why we have consciousness." And, in point of fact, he never does even attempt to refute the reality of the human "soul". Nevertheless, and this is the point upon which 'Hal' intends to obfuscate, 'im-skeptical' asserts the denial of the reality of the human "soul" ... and asserts that he himself has burden of proof for that denial.
"If you wish to persuade others that the soul actually exists, then you need to provide evidence for it."
'Hal' likewise asserts the denial of the reality of the human "soul". And, as 'im-skeptical' does, he asserts that the burden of proof for a reality that we all directly experience lies upon the one who assents that this experience is real, rather than upon himself who denies it.
"For example, if it could be shown that the soul explains how humans and animals are conscious that would be a good reason for accepting its existence."
And then, 'Hal' demands that 'Martin' "prove" this reality that we all directly experience by means of a category-error ... which category-error 'Martin' has already repeatedly explained is beside the point.
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This is *how* 'atheists' (and "liberals" and leftists and DarwinDefenders) "reason" and "argue". This is *why* a rational man cannot reason with them.
This is *why* I so frequently assert that a particular 'atheist' (or "liberal" or leftist or Darwinist) is intellectually dishonest: because most of them are. And once a particular one has shown himself to be intellectually dishonest, it is unwise, and frequently immoral, to go on pretending that he isn't.
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Continuing with the (ahem) argument:
[later]
.
Martin: Which raises yet another argument for dualism:
1. No matter has any meaning unless that meaning is assigned by a mind (for example, the squiggles "dog" means "dog" only because we assign that meaning to those squiggles; without us minds around doing that, the squiggles don't mean anything at all)
2. All thoughts have meaning. Your thoughts right now are no doubt "how can I refute this argument?". That's the meaning your current thoughts probably have.
3. Therefore, either A) no thoughts are matter, or B) thoughts have meaning only because they are assigned that meaning by a mind.
If you choose A, you are a dualist. If you choose B, then you go to infinite regress because you are trying to explain a mind in relation to a mind, and thus not explaining it at all.
Martin: Do electrons have meaning apart from someone interpreting them to have meaning? Do the squiggles on this screen mean anything apart from the English language and its users? I don't know any materialist who would deny that words, arrows, stop signs, etc only have their meaning because us humans assign meaning to them.
I cannot allow myself to understand the point: You are correct, and that's not the issue at hand. It is: Can my material mind assign meaning, or is it only your immaterial soul that can do it?
Martin: You are jumping the gun. The only issue in premise one is that no matter has any meaning apart from humans interpreting it that way. A stop sign means stop only because us humans have decided it means that. In virtue of just its physical properties, independent of human interests and language, it doesn't mean stop or anything else. And you appear to agree. So that's premise one. Matter is meaningless.
And the second premise is that thoughts have meaning. From which [two premises] it follows that no thoughts are matter.
I am allowed to assert just anything at all: Not unless you assume that thoughts are not the product of a purely material brain, but of the soul. A bad assumption if you are at all interested in looking at the empirical evidence.
Martin: I don't think you understand how logic works. It isn't an assumption, its an argument. If you affirm that matter has no meaning, and that thoughts do have meaning, then it follows that thoughts are not matter. To deny this conclusion entails denying that either thoughts have meaning, or that matter is meaningless.
Martin: Almost everything we say you somehow manage to not understand. I don't whose fault this is.
What ingx24 is saying is that if, for example, someone believes they are Jesus Christ, while they can obviously be mistaken about that. But what they cannot be mistaken about is the fact they believe they are Jesus Christ.
If you see a ghost, you can be mistaken about seeing a ghost but you cannot be mistaken about the fact that you think you see a ghost.
OK, now I will back up and point the reader to a couple of posts by 'im-skeptical' that got the above (ahem) argument going:
I'm intellectually dishonest, but don't you dare say that I am: Perhaps it's a little late to comment on the OP, but seriously? Theists are shocked that an atheist would be less than completely deferential to them? My earlier comment about the pot calling the kettle black applies here as well.As to the second post quoted here -- I and others pointed out in the thread the "misunderstanding" enshrined in 'im-skeptical's false assertion about what Craig said. The reader is free to peruse that thread and find those slap-downs of this set of lies -- which lies, by the way, are very commonly asserted by 'atheists' whenever a Jew or Christian makes the logical point that morality cannot even exist if atheism were the truth about the nature of reality. As Victor Reppert might say, this "misunderstanding" is a "common theme of atheists".
"people rage against God (note that the fury is directed at the Father and the Son) because they think He restricts them and interferes with what they want to do. Thus, God is viewed as oppressive and is rejected as an authority and ruler over their lives."
Right. Atheists who don't believe that God exists, feel oppressed by him. Schumacher understands us better than we understand ourselves. Maybe it's this kind of condescending attitude that atheists find frustrating.
I'm a liar, but don't you dare say that I am: After listening to the first round, I note that Craig's opening remarks included jewels like:
- Atheists think it's OK to walk into a school and start killing children.
- Atheists have a hihilistic worldview.
This is the kind of crap we hear every day.
As to the first whining post quoted here -- reason alone demonstrates to us that atheism is false, that reality is not like that. This has been known in the Western Tradition for a good 2500 years, that is, for a full 1000 years before the Hebraic Special Revelation became the cornerstone and central organizing principle for all of Western Civilization. While reason alone cannot give us Christianity, it can give us something very like Judaism.
For a good 2500 years in the West, reason alone has demonstrated to us all that atheism is false: And *still* there are those among us who deny the reality of God and of morality -- and who wage literal, death-dealing war upon the rest of us whenever they get their hands upon the levers of State power.
These God-deniers in our midst are not simply mistaken in their denial. They do not deny the reality of God because they are too stupid to do otherwise. The only other logically available category of general explanation for why they continue to deny the clear deliverance of reason is that they are intellectually dishonest ... they deny what reason demands we acknowledge because they will not assent to it.
What? Do you think Saint Paul was just blowing smoke out his ass when he "diagnosed" God-deniers 2000 years ago?
There are no other options aside from these three ... *therefore* 1) having established that "God is" is true; 2) having established that 'atheists' are mentally capable of understanding the logic which established that "God is" is true; 3) having established that 'atheists' cannot prove it false (and make no rational effort to do so); 4) having established that 'atheists' continue to thumb their noses at the clear deliverance of reason, it becomes utterly fitting to conclude that they are intellectually dishonest, that their position never was something they reasoned themselves to (and thus that they cannot be reasoned out of it by rational argument), and then to try to grub around in their psyches so as to see if we can understand what is really going on with them.
Edit (2013/02/18):
Will you look at that! Right on cue, almost as though he were a mindless puppet, 'im-skeptical' explicitly accuses 'Martin' of begging the question:
grodrigues: ...I asked you what "religious dogma" were you referring to, and what empirical evidence do you have in mind, since ingx24's argument, if it works like he says he does, was primarily directed at naturalists like yourself. In other words, I am asking for once to actually be intellectually honest and substantiate your claims.Isn't it way too amusing and ironic that "I_assert_that_I_have_no_mind" is complaning about trying to talk to a pile of bricks?
I will not reason, but don't you dare say that I won't: Feel free to go on ignoring what I said. You asked, I answered. It's like talking to a pile of bricks.
But I have been asking for substantiation to the claim that rational thought can't come from material things like the human brain, and all I get is circular arguments with no substantiation for the claim. So why don't you object to real intellectual dishonesty? Oh, I know...
Martin: I provided an argument above, and you not shown which premise is false. I however did provide justification for each premise.
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